BS6/Euro5 477 now possible - Racedynamics released the new V.4 Powertronic for the Hima

[Sasa]

only using map2 the running seems a bit lean still, @Sasa any suggestions for fuel or maybe timing

Neither. Unfortunately much of what you see in the spark plug is related to cruising, where your engine would normally spend most of its time.

I had already told you that in cruising the stock ecu kicks in and there is nothing the PT and its maps can do. Once the ecu switches to closed loop, the only way to enrich the mixture is thru an o2/lambda cheater…
This is where the fuelX comes in.

If you already have it, reinstall it back and try setting from 6 to 8 to see if that makes a difference.

It would surely do on fuel economy!

 

[Dool]

Told ya
The spark plug is not chopped so what I looks like is pretty much irrelevant.
FuelX

 

[Eddy the Mad]

Good day folks! I have an Euro5/BS6 (late 2021) model, equipped with an open exaust (Delkevic) and intake (DNA), a Hitchcocks stage2 camshaft and a FuelX basic (without all the whistles). The bike is running great! My question is: If i add the 477 kit in my current configuration, would it run good, but just not at its full potential OR would it run like crap? i understand there still is no perfect ECU solution for it...

Cheers,
Ed

 

[Sasa]

Hello @Eddy the Mad, by feeling, basing on your configuration, I'd say you're already not using the full potential of the bike, and running lean.

My suggestion would be to get a Powertronic beside the 477 kit and keep the fuelX mounted as well.

As discussed elsewhere the fuelx will cheat the stock ecu during the closed loop phase (cruising at constant RPM/throttle) while the PowerTronic would take care of the open loop phase.

My feeling is that your bike would knock on hard acceleration (without PT) and overheat in hot days, but I've been wrong in the past, so...

 

[sam2019]

Hi Eddy,
when I got my new BS6 in 2021 I upgraded to 477 and tried with FuelX Pro which has more options (6 add. steps for more fuel - 10 in all, 2 lean, one stock).
Even with Fuelx pro the 477 ran like shit, did cut out and knocked. Later I added the PT when it was available and it still ran quite bad until with @Sasa's help we got the mapping right. then it ran great. So in my opinion the PT is essential. If you add a performance cam later the fuelx may come in handy though. I would keep it installed along with the PT and the mapping we provide.

 

[Dool]

Performance Cam fitted already.

 

[sam2019]

Performance Cam fitted already.

yeah, well, it may or may not work with the hitch cam. better to get the fuelx pro then.

 

[Dool]

Eddie, compression needs to be taken into account at some stage.
There is seemingly a resistance to modify the Head when fitting a Big Bore, so what is effectively a smaller Head is installed raising the compression and leading to problems both with Knocking and sometimes starting problems also.
I would suggest that if you did go for a Big Bore that you enlargen the combustion chamber so as to avoid this.
Have you checked the compression on your current set up?
IMO, You are getting about 4HP more than stock with your bike now, getting the next 4 or 5 HP is a bit harder but can be done.

 

[sam2019]

I would suggest that if you did go for a Big Bore that you enlargen the combustion chamber so as to avoid this.

Before you scare Eddy away a note from someone who actually OWNS a BS6 477+cam:
Mine runs great, has a stock head and the compression is only 7 psi over stock (stock being 200 psi).
Yes, you can optimize it by enlarging the head and enlarging and polishing the TB and buying a 4-valve head and whatnot.
But the 31 RWHP we are talking about here (477+cam) are the goal for most, not the 34 Dool got with a LOT of additional time and costs.

 

[Dool]

31 is a meaningless number without a Base.
My base was 22 so 31 is 9 more and I doubt that anyone could get that with just Cam and 477cc, I didn't
Haven't got 34 yet either don't know when or if it is coming.

 

[Dool]

I doubt that Eddy has been fooled by the guff at HMC he has fitted the FuelX so I think he is across some of the detail.
Cam sellers that infer that just their Cam is needed then in fine print state it has Free flowing exhaust etc are not telling the truth.
But they are mostly believed because they are so Big and Big companies don't lie, do they?

Many people out there have taken their advice and have underperformed as a result, I personally believe that it is better to be well informed.

 

[sam2019]

31 is a meaningless number without a Base.
My base was 22 so 31 is 9 more and I doubt that anyone could get that with just Cam and 477cc

and the pt and fuelx, yes. 22 rwhp is a very good estimate for the 24 bhp RE is claiming. lets not split hair over it. if we did then discussion would be meaningless bc everyone needed to dyno run multiple times for exact comparisons. thats not realistic.

 

[Dool]

Dynos are not equal and readings differ, a base line is the only way to determine the improvement.
Others have made claims about their HP improvements that are just meaningless without a Base to count from.
But having said that the Guy says his bike is running fine as it is, my point is that the next step he is considering needs careful consideration and should be done with access to the best information.
Which he can get here, it may take a bit of reading between the lines

 

[sam2019]

Dynos are not equal and readings differ, a base line is the only way to determine the improvement.

well, if I have 18 RWHP baseline and you 22 RWHP and I measure 24 RWHP after 477 installation and you measure 28 RWHP - then we have comparable gains. But as I said - it is totally unrealistic to even expect a tiny number of people doing it - so far you are the only one with me having one unsuccessful trial under my belt. So its a very rare event. For precision it would be great if every gas station had a dyno but alas - no such luck.

Which he can get here, it may take a bit of reading between the lines

or even just the lines ... (you like your conspiracy theories don't you LOL)

 

[Eddy the Mad]

Hello @Eddy the Mad, by feeling, basing on your configuration, I'd say you're already not using the full potential of the bike, and running lean.

My suggestion would be to get a Powertronic beside the 477 kit and keep the fuelX mounted as well.

As discussed elsewhere the fuelx will cheat the stock ecu during the closed loop phase (cruising at constant RPM/throttle) while the PowerTronic would take care of the open loop phase.

My feeling is that your bike would knock on hard acceleration (without PT) and overheat in hot days, but I've been wrong in the past, so...

Thats very good info there, i would not have guessed that you could use the FuelX and a PT all together at the same time! What type PT would be required and what map? i understand you developed the map Sasa? When i choose to go for the 477, i understand i really need the PT upgrade also, right?

 

[Eddy the Mad]

Eddie, compression needs to be taken into account at some stage.
There is seemingly a resistance to modify the Head when fitting a Big Bore, so what is effectively a smaller Head is installed raising the compression and leading to problems both with Knocking and sometimes starting problems also.
I would suggest that if you did go for a Big Bore that you enlargen the combustion chamber so as to avoid this.
Have you checked the compression on your current set up?
IMO, You are getting about 4HP more than stock with your bike now, getting the next 4 or 5 HP is a bit harder but can be done.

I would not know witch shop could do this for me while knowing what needed to be done, but i know this would be ideal... i saw an indian guy have this done on the Youtube. When jou take the head to the shop, they might as well putt bigger valves in...

 

[Eddy the Mad]

Before you scare Eddy away a note from someone who actually OWNS a BS6 477+cam:
Mine runs great, has a stock head and the compression is only 7 psi over stock (stock being 200 psi).
Yes, you can optimize it by enlarging the head and enlarging and polishing the TB and buying a 4-valve head and whatnot.
But the 31 RWHP we are talking about here (477+cam) are the goal for most, not the 34 Dool got with a LOT of additional time and costs.

That is useful to know sir! my cam provides more lift and overlap, but i guess the compression should be at stock level, i will buy a tool to measure this tho

 

[Sasa]

Thats very good info there, i would not have guessed that you could use the FuelX and a PT all together at the same time! What type PT would be required and what map? i understand you developed the map Sasa? When i choose to go for the 477, i understand i really need the PT upgrade also, right?

Yes you can and it's actually adviseable, since the PT V4 for the BS6 seems to have no connection for the o2 sensor.

 

[sam2019]

The 477 absolutely needs the V4 PT. There is no version 3 PT available for the BS6 so there is no choice as such.
The 477 ALONE works great with only the PT4 - I have tried it.
The cam is a different issue: with 477 and the HT-b cam which has more lift and duration I can still run with ONLY the PT4 (with occasional knocking, but rarely) by adding more fuel overall and adjusting the timing - I also tried that.
However when I installed our new HT-c cam (still experimental and not yet for sale) which has even more lift and duration (which may be similar to the Hitch V2 cam) that was no longer the case. Knocking and loss of power indicated the need for even more fuel which was then provided by the fuelx PRO. The standard fuelx (no Pro) will NOT suffice here. Its autotune is only suffcient to help the 411 engine out of its lean situation.

So long story short: if you upgrade to 477 and keep the Hitch cam you possibly need PT4 and FuelX Pro to run it optimized. I do not own the Hitch cam so I am not 100% certain but from what Dool has said about it I assume as much.

 

[Dool]

Checking the Compression of a Build gives data that may help later on, I have done a Comp test, swapped cams and tested again to find a different reading.
On one Cam I installed the Bike only ran at high revs would not idle and had dropped its compression Drastically, duration and lift and Timing of such all came together and as a result the Compression was lost.
How a Cam performs at High Revs would not always be detected by a Compression test which of course is Low revs but it is good data if things appear to go wrong or get Better.

On the Subject of the PT for a Bs6, because of the Combined ECU Throttle Body, MAP and TPS sensors the PT has less to Tap into and the FuelX is a Must for full range tuning.