BS6/Euro5 477 now possible - Racedynamics released the new V.4 Powertronic for the Hima
- Thread starter sam2019
- Start date
Finally - I took the HT-b cam out and re-installed the (already run-in) 477 83.5 set. I also removed the FuelX Pro and installed the PT4.
The bike started well, idled well and surprising ran well with only some knocking on hard accelerations.
Today -with the help of the RD helpline I hope- I will add the map I got from ONX that was dynoed for a 477 without any other mods.
Then, once I get an understanding how to manipulate V4 maps I can hopefully optimize it to run the 477 with modded exhaust and air filter - which will be good for about 50% of the 477 users. After that I re-install the HT-b and optimize futher for the 477 with cam and exhaust and air filter.
That should cover 99% of 477 users - the few who do shit with their TBs and head mods and whatnot probably are smart enough to do their own map optimizing.
The bike started well, idled well and surprising ran well with only some knocking on hard accelerations.
Today -with the help of the RD helpline I hope- I will add the map I got from ONX that was dynoed for a 477 without any other mods.
Then, once I get an understanding how to manipulate V4 maps I can hopefully optimize it to run the 477 with modded exhaust and air filter - which will be good for about 50% of the 477 users. After that I re-install the HT-b and optimize futher for the 477 with cam and exhaust and air filter.
That should cover 99% of 477 users - the few who do shit with their TBs and head mods and whatnot probably are smart enough to do their own map optimizing.
Have you tested the Compression ?
No but it was 190 psi last time and why would it change? But I can do it again one of these days. IMO the knocking comes from lean run, not from high compression. Also: I run 95 fuel only.
You have changed Cams? that can have an effect on compression, plus it is useful data when tuning.
Probably or just Maybe
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So here is the compression result from today. we used the grey foot gasket (our own product - more than double the thickness of the stock paper) and still got 207 PSI - about 7 more than stock usually gives. But that is nowhere near enough to explain the knocking which is quite frequent in spite of 95 octane fuel.
The spark plug, although not filleted as suggested by some, still shows clear signs of lean run.
Of the 2 maps available map1 is the richer one and it still leads to ample knocking so Racedynamics did a shit job with their dyno run OR the PT4 is a piece of garbage. time will tell. Maybe @Sasa can help with the timing (of which I am clueless). But I know that wrong timing can lead to knocking.
The spark plug, although not filleted as suggested by some, still shows clear signs of lean run.
Of the 2 maps available map1 is the richer one and it still leads to ample knocking so Racedynamics did a shit job with their dyno run OR the PT4 is a piece of garbage. time will tell. Maybe @Sasa can help with the timing (of which I am clueless). But I know that wrong timing can lead to knocking.
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After I actually connected the PT4 to the bike and figured out where to click to have it "connect" to the notebook things went quite smoothly and intuitive. I did not need any help from the hotline (and sundays they dont work anyway).
I got the map ONX provided from the 477 they had dynoed by RD imported and activated, did the TPS calibration and the bike started right away (map1 - did not do much with map2 which is more lean and therefor less attractive) and idled at 1300 +- 50 - excatly by the book. There was a tiny hickup in the first 2 minutes when accelerating from low revs - it only appeared twice - then the bike ran very well - if it hadn't been for the frequent knocking whenever I did a bit of a sharp right hand move.
Power was not like the carby but better than stock - very similar to the "cam only with fuelx pro" that I had before (except that did not knock!).
funny thing: in the DIALS department none of the dials would move when I reved the bike except -obviously- the tacho. So I am not sure I configured everything right and there definitely is space for improvement. I hope I get this straightened out with the help of the hotline and faster than it took to get the red box up to speed.
Here are some static pics from the various map configurations and the config page itself and the dials:
I got the map ONX provided from the 477 they had dynoed by RD imported and activated, did the TPS calibration and the bike started right away (map1 - did not do much with map2 which is more lean and therefor less attractive) and idled at 1300 +- 50 - excatly by the book. There was a tiny hickup in the first 2 minutes when accelerating from low revs - it only appeared twice - then the bike ran very well - if it hadn't been for the frequent knocking whenever I did a bit of a sharp right hand move.
Power was not like the carby but better than stock - very similar to the "cam only with fuelx pro" that I had before (except that did not knock!).
funny thing: in the DIALS department none of the dials would move when I reved the bike except -obviously- the tacho. So I am not sure I configured everything right and there definitely is space for improvement. I hope I get this straightened out with the help of the hotline and faster than it took to get the red box up to speed.
Here are some static pics from the various map configurations and the config page itself and the dials:
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I'd say, by looking at it, that this map is garbage.
Sorry for being so direct.
There is 0% add on fuel (both map1 and map2) up to 33% engine load (0-25% engine load is where you spend most of the time...), so basically it is running like a stock bike, no wonder the spark plug looks lean and knocks...
I would add at least 3% fuel on every cell on top of map1.
Timing is very very conservative, if it's knocking it's because it's too lean, not too advanced...
Anyhow try to fetch the map I sent you a while ago when you had the V3. That was created basing on the values used by PC for the 462 of HMC. It should run well on your bike.
Use only one slot (map2) and copy each and every cell from that file, for both fuel and timing.
That should be a very good starting point.
Use only one slot (map2) and copy each and every cell from that file, for both fuel and timing.
That should be a very good starting point.
can you be a little more specific, e.g. the file name?
I talked to a RD support person at length. He agreed to all the points I made (see above) but could offer no solution, except that in 2-3 days a manual for the software will be available.
Regarding the PT itself and talking about the "garbage map" he said the PT reaches its limits at low rpm because it can only handle open loop. To have closed loop one needs to add the FuelX pro (very convenient from a sales perspective). He did not elaborate why RD can not incorporate the FuelX functionality into the PT - but considering this device is made for many different bikes maybe there is in fact a reason for it (but he did not know). Pointing out the space issue (where to put all the stuff the fuelx plus the PT are made of under the seat in an already cramped up space) he again agreed but again offered no solution. He mentioned that this problem is way worse on a KTM (but then again a KTM 390 has 44 HP so where is the need for a PT?).
Nevertheless I will attempt to copy Sasa's old PT map data (although I do remember I tried this with the V3 PT for the BS6 and it did NOT work) - maybe I get lucky this time.
If this does nothing for the knocking the FuelX Pro goes back into the bike. If that solves the knocking the cam also goes back - at which time I have reached my "design goal" for the 477/BS6.
Regarding the PT itself and talking about the "garbage map" he said the PT reaches its limits at low rpm because it can only handle open loop. To have closed loop one needs to add the FuelX pro (very convenient from a sales perspective). He did not elaborate why RD can not incorporate the FuelX functionality into the PT - but considering this device is made for many different bikes maybe there is in fact a reason for it (but he did not know). Pointing out the space issue (where to put all the stuff the fuelx plus the PT are made of under the seat in an already cramped up space) he again agreed but again offered no solution. He mentioned that this problem is way worse on a KTM (but then again a KTM 390 has 44 HP so where is the need for a PT?).
Nevertheless I will attempt to copy Sasa's old PT map data (although I do remember I tried this with the V3 PT for the BS6 and it did NOT work) - maybe I get lucky this time.
If this does nothing for the knocking the FuelX Pro goes back into the bike. If that solves the knocking the cam also goes back - at which time I have reached my "design goal" for the 477/BS6.
Sorry, I have no such map in my inventory, can you re-send pls?
Aha , now it is clear! I stated once before that I thought the FuelX was developed because of Euro5, being the last system you could cheat.
Long time back we were on about the ECU/TB and the fact that PT would not have access to enough sensors to be effective, someone pointed out that there was another way other than TPS to do the calculations.
My PT ( for Bs4 ) came with a short loom that went into the O2 sensor , to keep it from interfering with the Map loaded over it, if PT doesn't help in closed loop then it is truly limited and explains the pics Ive seen of your map, like there is nothing there because it is FU, so it is only going to help you when you are grabbing a handful of throttle if your lucky but not when your cruising.
Install the Fuelx yet ?
Long time back we were on about the ECU/TB and the fact that PT would not have access to enough sensors to be effective, someone pointed out that there was another way other than TPS to do the calculations.
My PT ( for Bs4 ) came with a short loom that went into the O2 sensor , to keep it from interfering with the Map loaded over it, if PT doesn't help in closed loop then it is truly limited and explains the pics Ive seen of your map, like there is nothing there because it is FU, so it is only going to help you when you are grabbing a handful of throttle if your lucky but not when your cruising.
Install the Fuelx yet ?
Your "expert" is mixing up things.
Open loop doesn't relate to high RPM, the bike can go in open loop mode also in low RPM if you grab a handful of throttle from, say 2000RPM.
Rather the PT will only affect the open loop behavior of the bike in the whole bike range, while in crusing the stock ECU will take over and start using the O2 signal.
So the fuelX will be effective in closed loop mode, being a lambda/o2 cheat, while the PT should work in open loop.
The reason why the (garbage) map looks the way it does it's because they put the bike on a dyno, ran it at wide open throttle, optimize it a bit and call it the day. They didn't bother doing partialized throttle runs, as I asked @Dool during his dyno session. The reason why the RB map looks the way it looks, it's because we took a lot of runs (partial and wot) and used them as data point to compile a proper map file.
So if you ask me: get the fuelX for cruising phases, where you would otherwise run quite lean, but enrich the map of the PT or you'll knock every time you open the gas...
The RB has the advantage of combining both devices into one, because it has a map for open loop, but still reads the O2 sensor in closed loop.
I hope I explained myself correctly...
I copied the cells from your V3 map1 onto my V4 map2 - it is not a 100% match because the RPM steps in V3 differ from those in V4 but I used the nearest value.
I did NOT copy the ignition settings (I would have if there was still knocking) - but a first test run on 15km showed zero knocking.
That is with only PT4 (no FuelX) and the values you gave me for V3.
It also seems there is more torque now (could be placebo though).
Tomorrow I put in the HT-b cam again to see if that setup still works.
If you don't copy the ignition values, you're eating a half-baked cake.
Put the ignition values in and then compare the torque.
BTW your sensation is no placebo, there surely is more torque. Previously you were running basically a stock map at low RPM.
I did, bike runs good but not better than before. no add. torque I can feel - on a short 10km test ride.
but nevertheless I am very happy that the BS6 riddle is solved for the 477. Tomorrow we will find out if it holds for the 477+cam as well.
