Cam Noise

Dool said:
I could not wait until next year so the 443 went up on the Bench, did a compression test stone cold 26deg C 225psi then after the Kent Cam fitted 210psi.

The Extra Duration has taken 15psi ? who knows could be the percentage discrepancy of the Gauge but I doubt it.
Exhaust Valve clearance didn't vary, Inlet was just a bit tight, I had checked before removing the Cam ( 3 thou inlet 9 thou exhaust both firm ) and did not re adjust. This means the Base Circle is the Same !
Start-up involved taking it off the Bench, selecting 5th gear and rocking back until it stopped, Clutch in I the hit the starter with a bit of throttle it roared into life and was held at 2000 then 3000rpm for about 5 minutes. then after that I restarted and did the video.

.

Real test ride tomorrow should be good, ,,,


443cc, Mudded Head 34mm Throttle body Sauce Bottle Air box , Free flowing Exhaust with BTY header Wrapped ( hot Gass flows faster ! ) and sexy stainless steel slip on Muffler

And a Brisk spark plug :)

Idle is a bit high around 1500rpm and there is a strangle clicking, good thrash around the Block and drop the idle later I left the Tank bolts loose!
Click to expand...
TBH that sounds quieter than my HT-b cam! you should do a back to back sound comparison with the 477 you have there laying around with the HT-b cam! :)

As discussed privately that might have something to do with the "recess" on the flank that should decellerate the valve just before closing, avoiding the "slamming" noise of the valve you get with the HT-b!

Anyhow I'm astounded by the idle AFR numbers! Did you do anything or was it just the original dyno file? If it's the latter than I have to go out and play the lottery! :ROFLMAO:
 
Buy that Ticket !

Surely they didn't spend so much money on the Fancy Machine to make it look Fashionable, so at this stage I like your description :)
Sasa said:
TBH that sounds quieter than my HT-b cam! you should do a back to back sound comparison with the 477 you have there laying around with the HT-b cam! :)

As discussed privately that might have something to do with the "recess" on the flank that should decellerate the valve just before closing, avoiding the "slamming" noise of the valve you get with the HT-b!

Anyhow I'm astounded by the idle AFR numbers! Did you do anything or was it just the original dyno file? If it's the latter than I have to go out and play the lottery! :ROFLMAO:
Click to expand...
Steady throttle AFR is just that, very steady! hot idle can go lean , cold start I am using a bit of throttle.

I will do a comparison of the 2 bikes noise at Idle. Im sure the Rollers are spinning faster than they did before, not much but some;)
They do have further to travel per rev.
 
Dool said:
Buy that Ticket !

Surely they didn't spend so much money on the Fancy Machine to make it look Fashionable, so at this stage I like your description :)

Steady throttle AFR is just that, very steady! hot idle can go lean , cold start I am using a bit of throttle.

I will do a comparison of the 2 bikes noise at Idle. Im sure the Rollers are spinning faster than they did before, not much but some;)
They do have further to travel per rev.
Click to expand...
The numbers I saw on the video, was it cold or warm idle?

You should make a video of warm idle (check the sw of the Red box, ECT temperature should be around 80°C) to see the AFR numbers there! If that is around 13.5 +/-0.3 we are in the right spot!
 
That would be cold, not stone cold, previously started but not warm:giggle:
 
Strange you mentioned 0.3, that would be the range of variation I was seeing this morning! Pretty Tight:cool:

I will play Cameraman tomorrow , hopefully in the right order,

1, Film Cold start on the 443, could be fun, if I am helping the starter I would be in 5th and need to hold the Clutch:)
2, Ride the 443, get it hot return c0nnect and capture Hot Idle. Bet it doesn't perform for the Camera!
3, Film Cold start on the 477.
4, Upload to YT and copy the links.

Whether it makes any sense or not is irelevent, Science and Motorcycles , who needs Sense:unsure:
 
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Peter in your description, "Extra power between 5 and 7 thousand is noticeable", it seems to me that you've got a Cam that is made to produce power at those higher RPM's. It's like the 1st/2nd iteration of the ONX that I'm currently running, as I too feel that is where the Cam's power was designed to be at. It will however be interesting to see what the dyno tells us about the overall effect that this Cam has on the overall performance being produced. Can't wait...

Sasa that's an interesting observation regarding the valve noise relative to the 'flank' (divot?) in the Cam's Lobe. That would make sense I guess; I couldn't figure out a reason for this feature. I wonder if ONX's new iteration of the 'b' Cam will also have this worked into it, but I guess that I'll see soon enough.
 
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RCruiser said:
Peter in your description, "Extra power between 5 and 7 thousand is noticeable", it seems to me that you've got a Cam that is made to produce power at those higher RPM's. It's like the 1st/2nd iteration of the ONX that I'm currently running, as I too feel that is where the Cam's power was designed to be at. It will however be interesting to see what the dyno tells us about the overall effect that this Cam has on the overall performance being produced. Can't wait...

Sasa that's an interesting observation regarding the valve noise relative to the 'flank' (divot?) in the Cam's Lobe. That would make sense I guess; I couldn't figure out a reason for this feature. I wonder if ONX's new iteration of the 'b' Cam will also have this worked into it, but I guess that I'll see soon enough.
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I only bought this Cam after reading a Noob's review on RE owners, the complaint was excessive noise and a Lack of Performance, noise was rectified apparently by removing the Cam!

You need to do you own research, is the take away from that ;)

Looking at the Cam and Feeling that "divot" made me keen to fit it, I am running 34mm TB atm and may go bigger.

This morning's run was faultless, AFR was rock steady at cruise 14.2 to 14.8 at 60 to 70kmh and 13.2 to 13.8 powering along at 110.

Dyno run will be interesting but results will be effected by previous Mods of course.
 
Thanks for your thoughts on the Cam Peter. However I'd like more! I'm not too concerned with the other performance additions that figure into this because I 'think' that we are about on par in this regard. Besides this YOU know your bikes characteristics and intuitively Know whether this Cam is 'better' or not, so your impressions for everyone are important. The dyno just verifies these things...
So,
* Other than the Umph above 5k rpm, any other power impressions now that you've ridden it?
* Regarding Noise: How would you compare it to OEM, to H-T b?
* ...I'll think of something else...
Nice AFR figures!
Bob
 
How about I say , "its fun to ride" sort of power you would expect from a decent sized single.
I have yet to fault it, hwy suburbs, even 5th gear at 60kph is good. AFR reminds me of the Dynojet piggy back, steady as a rock, and that made 30.5 with the O2 sensor disconnected.

But observations are just that and I ride two bikes that look the same :unsure: I will wait on the Dyno, save me eating that Pie:cool:
 
I have modified my Start technique. Beats selecting 5th and rolling back and has worked each morning since.
Now I hold a small amount of throttle and hit the button ;).
It takes straight up and I can use the Bi Starter lever or not and hold 2000rpm for 20 seconds or so ( Summer here), let it off and I've got a bike ready to go.
I now don't know why I thought it important to start without throttle, the engine doesn't have a proper cold start like my Car, let it Roar into life like a motorcycle.
My Lifepo battery is happier also.
 
Well the Brisk spark plug has its chance to show what it can do.
Tomorrow morning I have a Dyno run, 443cc Modded Head Kent/Hitchcocks Cam, my BTY exhaust pipe with the wrap and Yoshi muffler, oh and air box deleted and Brisk spark plug, held together with 6 German Clutch springs.
Looking for something like 31RWHP.
maybe I will post up some nice results:unsure:
 
Tappets are noisy, heard that before, I recently read something interesting about valve clearances and performance Cams and tonight shall investigate.
So theory is that the bottom of the base circle is where the the clearance is measured but that does no necessarily mean that is where we are setting as we go by the T mark of the Flywheel which may well be the lowest part of the base circle on a stock Cam but not the same on a Cam that has greater duration and lift as the Lobe is changed from stock.
So bikes on the Bench at TDC, Tappet covers off waiting for the next bit which is measure at the mark then rotate the engine back slightly and check again the Inlet. Exhaust will need slight rocking forward from TDC.
Anyone get this?
 
Dool said:
Tappets are noisy, heard that before, I recently read something interesting about valve clearances and performance Cams and tonight shall investigate.
So theory is that the bottom of the base circle is where the the clearance is measured but that does no necessarily mean that is where we are setting as we go by the T mark of the Flywheel which may well be the lowest part of the base circle on a stock Cam but not the same on a Cam that has greater duration and lift as the Lobe is changed from stock.
So bikes on the Bench at TDC, Tappet covers off waiting for the next bit which is measure at the mark then rotate the engine back slightly and check again the Inlet. Exhaust will need slight rocking forward from TDC.
Anyone get this?
Click to expand...
@Dool tappets should be checked when the piston is at TDC in the compression stroke. At that point both valves are surely closed, as it's the point where combustion occurs. That coincides with the line just below the T mark.

So in that point the rollers are surely out of the lobes of the cam and on the lower part of the base circle.
 
Sasa said:
@Dool tappets should be checked when the piston is at TDC in the compression stroke. At that point both valves are surely closed, as it's the point where combustion occurs. That coincides with the line just below the T mark.

So in that point the rollers are surely out of the lobes of the cam and on the lower part of the base circle.
Click to expand...
Update to come
 
with a Stock Cam, perhaps but the mark on the flywheel is a long way from the Tappet.
I learnt a couple of things tonight and can still remember one at least :rolleyes:
My tappets were set 9 and 3 thou by the best technician at my disposal so I know they feel, felt and when I set them:giggle:
Exhaust I like a tight 9 and inlet a slightly looser 3, only slightly loose, okay you cant feel it because they are my fingers but I can!

Anyhow so tonight I I learnt this ;),,
I checked the clearances on the T mark( not on the T ) and the ex was tight and the in was loose, now here is the point, it was looser than I would like but I would not be worried about it ( if not for the fact that I am Vying for a World Record ) and would normally not have bothered to tighten it.

Until I rocked back the engine about 25deg ( very scientific I know) and it felt Looser!, now Im no Dill, I rotated it further and things got worse so I checked where I was etc.
Taking it back to the T mark I tightened it up ever so little:cool:
the going forward a similarly accurate amount of degrees of rotation I checked the ex, now it definately to my trained fingers felt slightly looser also but as I had set it tight before I left it and replaced the covers:ninja:
 
Dool said:
with a Stock Cam, perhaps but the mark on the flywheel is a long way from the Tappet.
I learnt a couple of things tonight and can still remember one at least :rolleyes:
My tappets were set 9 and 3 thou by the best technician at my disposal so I know they feel, felt and when I set them:giggle:
Exhaust I like a tight 9 and inlet a slightly looser 3, only slightly loose, okay you cant feel it because they are my fingers but I can!

Anyhow so tonight I I learnt this ;),,
I checked the clearances on the T mark( not on the T ) and the ex was tight and the in was loose, now here is the point, it was looser than I would like but I would not be worried about it ( if not for the fact that I am Vying for a World Record ) and would normally not have bothered to tighten it.

Until I rocked back the engine about 25deg ( very scientific I know) and it felt Looser!, now Im no Dill, I rotated it further and things got worse so I checked where I was etc.
Taking it back to the T mark I tightened it up ever so little:cool:
the going forward a similarly accurate amount of degrees of rotation I checked the ex, now it definately to my trained fingers felt slightly looser also but as I had set it tight before I left it and replaced the covers:ninja:
Click to expand...
Is it possible you accidentaly ended up in at the start of the flank recess that is found on the Kent?
 
Sasa said:
Is it possible you accidentaly ended up in at the start of the flank recess that is found on the Kent?
Click to expand...
No, didnt got that far away from the back of the cam.
10 deg or less.
I see it this way,
A Beer helps, ;) so the top is bigger, to get from the bottom to the top there is the sides and they cant get much bigger so the Bottom does:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Now the Duration and the extra lift are cutting into the base circle territory so getting that slack spot at the back of the Cam is not determined by the "T Mark" but by feeling back a bit with x number of degrees for Inlet and forward for the Ex.:unsure:
 
I'm not sure I'm following you @Dool!

This is the graph of that Kent cam (extrapolated to the best of the information available)

1676494715555.png


As you can see from TDC on the compression stroke there are more than 90° of the crank in both direction (CW or CCW), so if you felt the tappet loosen up there might be something in the base circle. I got no other explanations...
 
Why does it have to make sense If I can feel it :unsure:
 
Now I am pretty sure it was quieter this morning also;)
 
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