Time to go ‘big bore’‽

[HimmyAde]

Hi folks new on here today. Been using the HTb since March last year on a BS4 and after doing all the other basic mods (air filter/booster plug/exhaust) I was planning on having a go with the 477 - just when things went t*ts up with the previous piston issues. I’d sort of parked the idea as the Hitchcocks 462 was way too expensive, but the idea was rekindled by someone on another forum recently so decided to have a look again and saw you had a kit available again. So……a couple of questions:

1/ is the full kit effectively a ’plug & play’ - I’m a reasonably competent mechanic so would have no problem with that side of it.

2/ would I need a PT/Red ECU (for which I know there are stock maps provided) or is a Fuel X Pro adequate to give sufficient extra fuel? I appreciate that I might not realise the full potential that way. The problem is I’m not particularly IT literate and no longer even own a laptop (only using an iPad these days).

I do have a mate who is very good with IT/electronics and has written his own maps for his CCM GP450 so its not a complete deal breaker if the aftermarket ECU is essential.

grateful for any guidance, cheers, Ade

 

[Dool]

With Displacement comes as you guess the need to spend more Money
ECU is not up to it! you have 2 Piggy back options that require a Spider Web of wires or the Red Box.
You can although persevere with a Fuelx device but it restricts your options and your power.
Not having a laptop could be a problem.

 

[HimmyAde]

With Displacement comes as you guess the need to spend more Money
ECU is not up to it! you have 2 Piggy back options that require a Spider Web of wires or the Red Box.
You can although persevere with a Fuelx device but it restricts your options and your power.
Not having a laptop could be a problem.

Thanks Dool, the cost of the Red Box isn’t an issue - it’s just how much it needs programming around the supplied maps. As I say I’m sure I can get my mate to help me with that side of things if necessary. Maybe worth the mechanical conversion and see how it performs with the F-X first??

 

[thony]

Hi folks new on here today. Been using the HTb since March last year on a BS4 and after doing all the other basic mods (air filter/booster plug/exhaust) I was planning on having a go with the 477 - just when things went t*ts up with the previous piston issues. I’d sort of parked the idea as the Hitchcocks 462 was way too expensive, but the idea was rekindled by someone on another forum recently so decided to have a look again and saw you had a kit available again. So……a couple of questions:

1/ is the full kit effectively a ’plug & play’ - I’m a reasonably competent mechanic so would have no problem with that side of it.

2/ would I need a PT/Red ECU (for which I know there are stock maps provided) or is a Fuel X Pro adequate to give sufficient extra fuel? I appreciate that I might not realise the full potential that way. The problem is I’m not particularly IT literate and no longer even own a laptop (only using an iPad these days).

I do have a mate who is very good with IT/electronics and has written his own maps for his CCM GP450 so its not a complete deal breaker if the aftermarket ECU is essential.

grateful for any guidance, cheers, Ade

Kit is plug & play man. You would need the Red Box to get all goddies from the 477. Maps have been very much improved and there is a great team behind.

I would say to not do FuelX if you have not yet purchased it, get the red box.

Program will not run on Mac, I had to get an old laptop to use the program. Process is very straightforward if you follow provided steps, I did it with no experience.

 

[Sasa]

Hello @HimmyAde and welcome around here!

I would also suggest you the Red box way, but I’m the man behind the maps, so my judgement might be biased.
Anyhow the installation process is straight forward and if your buddy has a laptop you’d only need a couple of sessions of 30mins to get things going, and that is including idle optimization and red box physical installation. I can guide you and your friend along the way, if you want to follow this route, and even explain him the basic of the Redbox if he wants to optimize your bike beyond the basic map.

Anyhow you can count on plenty of support on the RedBox side, not entirely sure you can say the same about power commander and Powertronic.

Don’t bother with fuelX, why buy a Ferrari and the drive only in first and second gear?

 

[HimmyAde]

Kit is plug & play man. You would need the Red Box to get all goddies from the 477. Maps have been very much improved and there is a great team behind.

I would say to not do FuelX if you have not yet purchased it, get the red box.

Program will not run on Mac, I had to get an old laptop to use the program. Process is very straightforward if you follow provided steps, I did it with no experience.

Thanks @thony , I’ll dig my old laptop out of the loft and see if it will take charge. If not I can probably pick one up cheap - will have to try to remember how to use Windows though

 

[HimmyAde]

Hello @HimmyAde and welcome around here!

I would also suggest you the Red box way, but I’m the man behind the maps, so my judgement might be biased.
Anyhow the installation process is straight forward and if your buddy has a laptop you’d only need a couple of sessions of 30mins to get things going, and that is including idle optimization and red box physical installation. I can guide you and your friend along the way, if you want to follow this route, and even explain him the basic of the Redbox if he wants to optimize your bike beyond the basic map.

Anyhow you can count on plenty of support on the RedBox side, not entirely sure you can say the same about power commander and Powertronic.

Don’t bother with fuelX, why buy a Ferrari and the drive only in first and second gear?

Like your Ferrari analogy @Sasa - not sure too appropriate for a Himmy though . Sounds like what you guys say I’m going to have to learn a bit more…..old new tricks time by the look of it!

 

[sam2019]

When I got my BS6 I immediately converted it to 477 (no cam) and installed the FuelX Pro (because at the time a PT was not available for the BS6).
The bike ran awful. Cutouts, very bad cold start, not the power I came to know from the 477 carby model.

So in my judgement the FuelX - even Pro on level 10, the highest "add fuel" level, is not sufficient. And as Sasa said, a bunch of people is working out the kinks on the red box - so for most of us its a plug-and-play situation (regarding the cables - it really is plug and play - unplug the old ECU, plug in the red box - something definitely NOT true for the PT).

In the meantime Racedynamic released a PT for the BS6 BUT failed to also publish a manual for the new V4 software, so I had to built my 477 back to 411 until I can figure out how to program the V4 PT. I now have a 411 with ht-b cam and FuelX Pro and yeah, it runs very well but of course not nearly like a fully converted 477/cam combo with the red box would.

 

[Dool]

Thanks Dool, the cost of the Red Box isn’t an issue - it’s just how much it needs programming around the supplied maps. As I say I’m sure I can get my mate to help me with that side of things if necessary. Maybe worth the mechanical conversion and see how it performs with the F-X first??

Get the Red Box, the FuelX will disappoint.
Chalk and Cheese type different.
The mapping is the Key of course but seems good to me presently.
I hesitate to say plug and play but a Dynojet power commander or a powertronic (PC or PT) cost more, take longer to install and are not any better out of the box.
I have tried all of the above, PC is the most extensive and I was only able to get an improvement by disconnecting the O2 sensor! So much for being able to get it onto a Dyno with compatible Software Tuner was able to get 1.5HP more.
PT needs mapping and I haven't found anyone in Australia to do this, it's cheaper than PC does a the job on a 477.

 

[sam2019]

Get the Red Box, the FuelX will disappoint.

I agree

PT needs mapping and I haven't found anyone in Australia to do this, it's cheaper than PC does a the job on a 477.

as a stop gap measure one can use the Hitchcock map for the 462 on the 477. I have tried it and it works. only available for BS4 though (R-tune 3.0).

 

[Dool]

PT will suffice but not excel.
It is the safe way and cheapest of the Piggy Backs, but still a Piggy back

 

[HimmyAde]

Thanks @Dool @Sasa @sam2019 @thony

Looks like there’s only one way to go then - off up into the loft now to see if that old Sony Viao will still work‽

 

[Dool]

yes windows is unavoidable in this case even the PT and PC require it at some stage.

 

[HimmyAde]

When I got my BS6 I immediately converted it to 477 (no cam) and installed the FuelX Pro (because at the time a PT was not available for the BS6).
The bike ran awful. Cutouts, very bad cold start, not the power I came to know from the 477 carby model.

So in my judgement the FuelX - even Pro on level 10, the highest "add fuel" level, is not sufficient. And as Sasa said, a bunch of people is working out the kinks on the red box - so for most of us its a plug-and-play situation (regarding the cables - it really is plug and play - unplug the old ECU, plug in the red box - something definitely NOT true for the PT).

In the meantime Racedynamic released a PT for the BS6 BUT failed to also publish a manual for the new V4 software, so I had to built my 477 back to 411 until I can figure out how to program the V4 PT. I now have a 411 with ht-b cam and FuelX Pro and yeah, it runs very well but of course not nearly like a fully converted 477/cam combo with the red box would.

Hi @sam2019 , that’s interesting as I have a BS6 as well as the BS4. Actually I was intending to try the 477 on the BS6 until I found that this was not currently feasible - so when I was offered a BS4 by a mate (very cheap) I snapped it up for playing with. I’ve since turned it more ‘off roady’ where I don’t really need any more power but the extra would be really nice on my road biased BS6. Is there any likelihood of a ‘Red Box’ for the BS6 any time soon (or ever) .

My recently dug out Windows laptop is currently doing updates - which could take some time as it hasn been updated since 2019 .

BTW my BS6 is also running very well with open intake, free flow filter, iridium plug, Fuel-X Pro, decat front pipe and TEC Camshaft . I bought the TEC before I knew about the HTb but was not impressed by the quality - the first one they sent me was sh1te (see pic) and when I told them they said George their ‘expert’ said it was fine to fit - not to my bloody engine it wasn’t‽ They did replace it no problem though with one that was visibly ok - but I was stunned by the difference in quality of the HTb when I got it for the BS4, and have been singing its praises on the forums since.

I did actually have a full decat system on the BS6 but despite breathing more freely at the top end it lost a bit of bottom end grunt, and I found the OEM end can was an acceptable compromise. I’m probably going to try the OEM catalysed front pipe with the open end can next - can’t help but play
Cheers, Ade

 

[sam2019]

Hi @sam2019 , that’s interesting as I have a BS6 as well as the BS4. Actually I was intending to try the 477 on the BS6 until I found that this was not currently feasible

well, it is if you are software savyy, if not I wouldn't try the new V4 PT bcause I am clueless as to how to use the V4 software. The V3 is kinda inutitive though If you know about engine tuning basics. But also that one I never got to work the way I wanted it (well, no surprise there, I know shit about ECUs and their programming)
Sasa our current ECU guru did understandbly not dive too deep into something he had no personal interest in (red box and all) although at one point he tried to help but it just did not cut it the way my carby runs (now **both** my carbies run perfect from the get-go).

- so when I was offered a BS4 by a mate (very cheap) I snapped it up for playing with. I’ve since turned it more ‘off roady’ where I don’t really need any more power but the extra would be really nice on my road biased BS6. Is there any likelihood of a ‘Red Box’ for the BS6 any time soon (or ever) .

we where promised something last year in August if memory serves - since then it has been postponed several times and the outcome is uncertain. I would not totally count it out but I am also not hanging my business on it - I have sold several BS6 sets with the new PT V4 to shops in Europe who have their own technicians and seem capable to handle the PT. I hope some day they will share the results.

My recently dug out Windows laptop is currently doing updates - which could take some time as it hasn been updated since 2019 .

Win 10 then - OK great. although the software runs on XP as well

BTW my BS6 is also running very well with open intake, free flow filter, iridium plug, Fuel-X Pro, decat front pipe and TEC Camshaft . I bought the TEC before I knew about the HTb but was not impressed by the quality - the first one they sent me was sh1te (see pic) and when I told them they said George their ‘expert’ said it was fine to fit - not to my bloody engine it wasn’t‽ They did replace it no problem though with one that was visibly ok - but I was stunned by the difference in quality of the HTb when I got it for the BS4, and have been singing its praises on the forums since.

I did actually have a full decat system on the BS6 but despite breathing more freely at the top end it lost a bit of bottom end grunt, and I found the OEM end can was an acceptable compromise. I’m probably going to try the OEM catalysed front pipe with the open end can next - can’t help but play
Cheers, Ade

so far I have the BS6 with cam and fueltx pro running very well but not at full power like the 477 carby. so in the near future as soon as the BS3 is ready for the road the BS6 will again be upgraded to 477 (no cam for starters) and I will take the Racedynamic hotline up on their promise to "help me thru all my problems". Its india so it does not mean much but who knows - maybe they do know their shit and I am smart enough to understand what they are saying ...

 

[Dool]

I agree with George!
And I too complained about the dents in mine, they were made in the Midst of a Pandemic and a demand that none saw coming either
Manufacuring techniques are different also between countries.
Roller rocker woudnt have noticed it.

 

[HimmyAde]

I agree with George!
And I too complained about the dents in mine, they were made in the Midst of a Pandemic and a demand that none saw coming either
Manufacuring techniques are different also between countries.
Roller rocker woudnt have noticed it.

Agreed a roller rocker (or rock n roller ) maybe wouldn’t have noticed it but I’m a bit OCD in these things. I was also concerned over what perhaps I couldn’t see underneath the poor finishing …….

 

[Dool]

I too was a bit peeved, thing is they were hardened the old way in batches in cages before the final grinding process as it seems, My second one was better, still got it! pick it in the pic come to think of it I have a few Cams, Personally I think you have made the wrong choice for the present in that the Bs4 is perfect for Performance upgrading now whereas the Bs6 is not yet proven,.

 

[HimmyAde]

I too was a bit peeved, thing is they were hardened the old way in batches in cages before the final grinding process as it seems, My second one was better, still got it! pick it in the pic come to think of it I have a few Cams, Personally I think you have made the wrong choice for the present in that the Bs4 is perfect for Performance upgrading now whereas the Bs6 is not yet proven,.

Didn’t say I wasn’t going to go forward with the BS4 (don’t think I did anyway) just that more power for my road biased BS6 would be of more value to me. I’m interested to know if you found a noticeable difference between the performance of your BS4 with the Tec camshaft when compared to the HTb? My BS4 certainly feels livelier than my BS6 both similar in mods other than camshafts but of course that could be down to ECU changes between the two. However the BS6 has a bit more bottom end and is smoother (BS4 has 8K miles on & BS6 3K)

2nd from right??

 

[Dool]

Second from left
I had a 477 with the TEC Cam on the Bs4, after a good Dyno run 31RWHP, I changed to a H-T b and it fad a flat spot which required more fuel, I was using the PT at the time.
Retuned it felt better in the Mid Range and that showed on the Chart but was unable to beat 31!
About that time the 477mk1 started failing and mine was no exception so Dyno Results from that build are not valid, I still think the HT-b was better in the Mid Range.
If your interested in comparing for yourself I could give you a HT-b, it would cost you the shipping.