Lazy cold start gone

thony

Developer
Developer
477 Owner
I went ahead and adjusted cold injection values as per the instructional provided by @Sasa, cold start problems have dissapear at all. My regular mornings start at 17-19 Celsius, mid morning and noon starts around 20-25 and they all start at the push of the button. Below or above thoese temp I have not yet tried but it can be tested too.

First line shows default temperature at the specific rpms, Mod1 is the increments I made (based on just a random number up but considering what my bike had been behaving like during all these months.

Bike needed three button pushes every morning, I had adopted @Dool method of allowing just a bit of throttle to get to 1800 rpms and stay there for 20s or transition to choke (1600 rpms +-), even with a warmed up engine (at 56C or above I suppose) it sometimes required more than I push, so far it has only required one button push at all these scenarios.

1674576565051.jpeg
Now my questions (for the sake of leaving some usefull wisdom to others on this thread):

How sensitive are these values? My increases could have been too much?
The modifications made affect all maps on my current version right? Or is this a process to be repeated on all maps (T1,2,4)?

I was planning to start reducing little by little to find a more optimal spot (this just in case my increments had been on the too much side).

Provoked cut offs still happen from 3rd to 2nd gear curiously at around 24-28 kmh if during this moment I pull the clutch lever sudden and let the bike roll down a hill for a bout a sec or two. Could this be a spark timing issue? Not a priority but interesting events.
 

sam2019

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Please explain for those who come here for the first time what you are talking about. Even I do not understand what you are showing us with your list. I assume it is part of the NMW ECU software but which part. INI Ve? INJ Deg? IGN Deg? something else??
 

Dool

Backyard Bodger
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ECT Comp INJ tab , it tells the ECU to give more fuel when cold.
So Thony has increased the extra fuel at the Temps he has listed.
 

sam2019

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Thony is refering to this post by Sasa:

 

Sasa

Mediocre pilot - Average mechanic - Crazy tinkerer
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477 Owner
I went ahead and adjusted cold injection values as per the instructional provided by @Sasa, cold start problems have dissapear at all. My regular mornings start at 17-19 Celsius, mid morning and noon starts around 20-25 and they all start at the push of the button. Below or above thoese temp I have not yet tried but it can be tested too.

First line shows default temperature at the specific rpms, Mod1 is the increments I made (based on just a random number up but considering what my bike had been behaving like during all these months.

Bike needed three button pushes every morning, I had adopted @Dool method of allowing just a bit of throttle to get to 1800 rpms and stay there for 20s or transition to choke (1600 rpms +-), even with a warmed up engine (at 56C or above I suppose) it sometimes required more than I push, so far it has only required one button push at all these scenarios.

View attachment 389
Now my questions (for the sake of leaving some usefull wisdom to others on this thread):

How sensitive are these values? My increases could have been too much?
The modifications made affect all maps on my current version right? Or is this a process to be repeated on all maps (T1,2,4)?

I was planning to start reducing little by little to find a more optimal spot (this just in case my increments had been on the too much side).

Provoked cut offs still happen from 3rd to 2nd gear curiously at around 24-28 kmh if during this moment I pull the clutch lever sudden and let the bike roll down a hill for a bout a sec or two. Could this be a spark timing issue? Not a priority but interesting events.
Well done @thony! I'm glad that post of mine helped you out and possibly the instruction were clear enough.
Given the similarities between our bikes I'll try these values myself and report back!

About the values: there is no right or wrong, it is bike dependent and if you're bike works like this then there is no need to change them much, since the extra fuel is only temporary and you won't save much fuel if you reduce them to the minimum. The values on the ECT comp INJ affect all maps and that is the same reason why in the lowermost cells in each map from 1 to 3 the values are the same. Regardless of the map you'll ride, idle has to be the same. Only map4 has different idle values, and that is because at higher altitude there will be less oxygen.

Cut off are still interesting. I wonder if you noticed at which RPM it happens? it shoudl be (according to gearingcommander) between 2500 and 2000RPMs, is that correct? I'll investigate this further...
 

thony

Developer
Developer
477 Owner
The values on the ECT comp INJ affect all maps and that is the same reason why in the lowermost cells in each map from 1 to 3 the values are Cut off are still interesting. I wonder if you noticed at which RPM it happens? it shoudl be (according to gearingcommander) between 2500 and 2000RPMs, is that correct? I'll investigate this further...
Thanks! And yes, just tried yesterday and cut off going from 3rd to 2nd, at 26kmh at 2000-2300 rpm. Road has to allow free rolling for this to happen, this is pulling clutch lever in and keep it dissengaged for about a second. At the push of the button it starts up again with no problems.
 

Sasa

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Thanks! And yes, just tried yesterday and cut off going from 3rd to 2nd, at 26kmh at 2000-2300 rpm. Road has to allow free rolling for this to happen, this is pulling clutch lever in and keep it dissengaged for about a second. At the push of the button it starts up again with no problems.
@thony I think I might have found the culprint of this phoenomena, but I need you to do a test to verify my theory.

1674739473644.png

In this page of the software in place of the values in the red box insert 2.55 @2000, 2.50 @2500 and 2.4@3000. Values are the same for every map, so change them in all the map you use.


1674739559131.png

In this page insert 8.5 in the blue square. Also in this case repeat the process for every map.

Do this mod (they won't alter the riding experience at all) and try to test it whenever is possible and safe to do it!

Keep us posted.
 

thony

Developer
Developer
477 Owner
@Sasa I thought you nailed it but no, still cuts off under same driving conditions (3rd to 2nd (and this time also at a very timed 2nd to 1st at 26kmh at 2200 rpm). Road has to allow free rolling for this to happen, this is pulling clutch lever in and keep it disengaged for about a second (although this time bike rolled for longer before cutting off, 4 seconds maybe, it did not happen immediately - sign of improvement?- seems like it).
 

Sasa

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Interesting!

So let's go one step further. Change the value in the blue box (see picture above) to 7.5 this time and the one right next to it on left side (it's now a 7) to 6. We could verify this way if we are on the right path! :)
 

Sasa

Mediocre pilot - Average mechanic - Crazy tinkerer
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Developer
477 Owner
Interesting!

So let's go one step further. Change the value in the blue box (see picture above) to 7.5 this time and the one right next to it on left side (it's now a 7) to 6. We could verify this way if we are on the right path! :)
Oh I forgot, remember to do that for all four maps! :)

Thanks for your cooperation!
 

RCruiser

Developer
Developer
477 Owner
Hi guys. Well guess what I discovered yesterday: I discovered that after I messed around with the Cold Start Procedure that my bike started to Cut-Out (die) when I shut down the throttle, just like Thony has been writing about!? This happened to me pretty constantly on my short commute, or probably 6-8 times.
I'll be following this thread closesly bc, duh, I need to correct the problem, but I also 'think' that it must be Timing Related.
My other theory is that the motor is now running too rich When Hot, down in those lower numbers/@ idle, and that this Too Rich condition is somehow causing the bike to die.
However that theory is not exclusive to the Timing, as maybe if the Timing were Bumped up in this Range, it would be enough compensation to support the extra Fuel?
Along with the latest exercise suggested by Sasa, I think that I need to do the Step that he'd suggested before, and that is to try Reducing the Fuel at Cold Start until it is at its lowest level to start the engine while cold...
Bob
 
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Sasa

Mediocre pilot - Average mechanic - Crazy tinkerer
Staff member
Developer
477 Owner
Hi guys. Well guess what I discovered yesterday: I discovered that after I messed around with the Cold Start Procedure that my bike started to Cut-Out (die) when I shut down the throttle, just like Thony has been writing about!? This happened to me pretty constantly on my short commute, or probably 6-8 times.
I'll be following this thread closesly bc, duh, I need to correct the problem, but I also 'think' that it must be Timing Related.
My other theory is that the motor is now running too rich When Hot, down in those lower numbers/@ idle, and that this Too Rich condition is somehow causing the bike to die.
However that theory is not exclusive to the Timing, as maybe if the Timing were Bumped up in this Range, it would be enough compensation to support the extra Fuel?
Along with the latest exercise suggested by Sasa, I think that I need to do the Step that he'd suggested before, and that is to try Reducing the Fuel at Cold Start until it is at its lowest level to start the engine while cold...
Bob
@RCruiser download the latest file from the RB and send it to me via mail so that I can take a look! :)
 

RCruiser

Developer
Developer
477 Owner
I tried to copy the file from the Program to a USB, came back to send it off to you brother, but unfortunately it only had 49kb/empty!? OK I'm not too techy; can anyone teach me how to copy my RB to an USB OR just plop it into an email, Please? TIA...
 

Sasa

Mediocre pilot - Average mechanic - Crazy tinkerer
Staff member
Developer
477 Owner
I tried to copy the file from the Program to a USB, came back to send it off to you brother, but unfortunately it only had 49kb/empty!? OK I'm not too techy; can anyone teach me how to copy my RB to an USB OR just plop it into an email, Please? TIA...
@RCruiser file is good, a map file is tiny, exactly 49kb! :)
 

Dool

Backyard Bodger
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Bob, I would have told you but you did it anyhow with out knowing :) You must have inadvertently hit the "save as" button and directed it it the USB, just what the doctor ordered 😁

Does it still run now that you have sent the file :unsure:
 

thony

Developer
Developer
477 Owner
I have tried various numbers for the cold start and these are my findings, highlighted is what worked best for my bike, curiously it was the first modification I did (Mod1 or even Mod2). I also checked spark plug externally and seems too sooty? Put on a new one yesterday. This is the same spark plug I had had even before the 477 came in.
Hi guys. Well guess what I discovered yesterday: I discovered that after I messed around with the Cold Start Procedure that my bike started to Cut-Out (die) when I shut down the throttle, just like Thony has been writing about!? This happened to me pretty constantly on my short commute, or probably 6-8 times.
I'll be following this thread closesly bc, duh, I need to correct the problem, but I also 'think' that it must be Timing Related.
My other theory is that the motor is now running too rich When Hot, down in those lower numbers/@ idle, and that this Too Rich condition is somehow causing the bike to die.
However that theory is not exclusive to the Timing, as maybe if the Timing were Bumped up in this Range, it would be enough compensation to support the extra Fuel?
Along with the latest exercise suggested by Sasa, I think that I need to do the Step that he'd suggested before, and that is to try Reducing the Fuel at Cold Start until it is at its lowest level to start the engine while cold...
Bob


1675353026609.png
1675353053447.png
 

Dool

Backyard Bodger
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477 Owner
Spark plug looks fine, it aint wet and it aint Sooty, without doing an actual chop you get very little from reading them.
What is the Ambient temp there, what does the dash read out ?
 

RCruiser

Developer
Developer
477 Owner
Thanks for the data Thony. Thanks Sasa but I already deleted it so I've gotta go back out to the bike, which I can't do until morning time now. Thanks Peter; now I don't know if I've got a MAP in the bike and whether I'll get to work in the morning!?!
Now I get it: This is Why these are called Adventure Bikes!! Is it?
Bob
 
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