Well in all fairness I do have a racing ECU programmer here on the standby, so if plug n play fails I will have to make my own setting for the scram 477 !
New BS6 Hima 477 design plan using the 440 ECU/TB
- Thread starter sam2019
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So why not reprogram the original?
There seemingly is one in India as well, however they are not a business, my guess is "rich parents kids", when I asked them why they did not have a proper webpage or contact number or anything resembling a business they reacted with "fuck off - we are not a business"
so I dont know what to do with them. maybe one of you guys want to try
so I dont know what to do with them. maybe one of you guys want to try
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That's what my friend will do. Reprogram the original in case I cannot do with the 440/fuel x combo out of the box.
They are a small business in Navi Mumbai, with a dynojet rolling road. I would suggest your negative response was a direct result of how you questioned their set up.There seemingly is one in India as well, however they are not a business, my guess is "rich parents kids", when I asked them why they did not have a proper webpage or contact number or anything resembling a business they reacted with "fuck off - we are not a business"
so I dont know what to do with them. maybe one of you guys want to try
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I believe they operate via insta messaging and word of mouth in the drag racing/ 1/4 mile fraternity. They have tuned a few Enfield twins, which appears to have included re mapping, but the Himalayan they had for fuelling issues was PT controlled not a RE ecu remap. I will politely ask a few more questions and see what they can do.
Save yourself some money and get your friend to reprogramme the original ECU. Following that your friend would have a potential business re flashing a lot of himalayan ECUs. That would be a win win situation for you and him.
too late, and no backsis
do your inquiry into the rich kids and let us know.
goodEnquiry sent, will let all know any responses.
A word about ECU re programing: the flash part is easy, basically it is an EPROM and tools to flash those are cheap and easy to use. Each RE dealer has one to apply updates of ECUs.
The tricky part is the program that allows to make the data set for the respective ECU. There seems to be no norm for the memory allocation and data placing from company to company so only if 2 bike brands use the same ECU manufacturer the same tool could possibly be used. But even that is not a certainty as not all vehicles use all sensor data in the same way or even have access to the same data/sensors.
There is one company in Italy and one in Canada I know of who do RE ECU re programing and both charge in the ballpark of 500 bucks for an update. I do not know if they use the same programing tool RE uses (in their factory) or if it is a clone or something else entirely. But it aint cheap.
The tricky part is the program that allows to make the data set for the respective ECU. There seems to be no norm for the memory allocation and data placing from company to company so only if 2 bike brands use the same ECU manufacturer the same tool could possibly be used. But even that is not a certainty as not all vehicles use all sensor data in the same way or even have access to the same data/sensors.
There is one company in Italy and one in Canada I know of who do RE ECU re programing and both charge in the ballpark of 500 bucks for an update. I do not know if they use the same programing tool RE uses (in their factory) or if it is a clone or something else entirely. But it aint cheap.
Well hopefully I can get some dialogue going with the boys in Navi Mumbai and take it from there
Prodotto - MaKXpk8STv - TopTuning
Book your Royal Enfield Scram 411 - 24cv ECU remapping now. Find out the benefits and prices on TopTuning's website now and find a location near you.
www.toptuning.it
They are 41 mins drive from the port in Venice, and I live in the west Coast of Greece, I was ready to get on the ship and go if they would be able to tune up my scram.
Ask if they take fruit or veggies as collateral, not being a business I mean ...
Yeah, for a company thats not a business they do have a dynojet 250i, and their dyno slots are booked up for a month in advance. Their business is sports bike ECU remapping and Dyno tuning sports bikes and drag bikes, they sell exchange sport bike ECUs around the world. They have confirmed that they have never reprogrammed a Himalayan but are confident they could crack my BS4 ECU with a month plus some dyno time and a lot of money. Interestingly they did say from experience with various other Royal Enfields, the very limited tuning ability of the Powertronic piggy back ECU severely limits what can be achieved, primarily because they can essentially only deal with spark,ignition and fuel ratio, they say the ability to change O2, Lambda & certain aspects of fuelling in conjunction with the primary items makes a big difference. I did share a screenshot of the 'Red Box' tuning software, they basically said it was also very limited just like the Powertronic. Dont shoot the messenger, just repeating what I have been told.
I didnt ask for a price because it all started to sound very expensive. The reality of these guys is they are drag strip and sports bike tuners feeding the urge in Mumbai, Pune and Bengalaru, where there is plenty of spare cash flowing, where time and money has less importance than an 1/4 of a second reduction.
But having asked the right questions in the first place did generate a reasonable response and a healthy discussion, even if unsuccessful, I wonder why they told you to Fuck off?
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spoiled rich kids, not happy with critique of any kind and - idiots to boot.I wonder why they told you to Fuck off?
well, you got your answer. the PT4 is indeed very limited, the PT3 was much better but of course that is REs fault, not that of Racedynamics, they can only work with what is available and hardened ECUs are just that - hardened against manipulation.
the red box allows very differentiated programming, it is a racing ECU and if they cant see that - see above.
so lets hope the 440 ECU will work well for the 477 which I am 90% certain it will. especially with the fuelx pro+ as a combo.
I wish I had a copy of the parts list with pictures to check on the 440 head configuration. Given the low add. output it is very likely identical to the 411, although Dool thinks otherwise. I might be able to get a peek with add. picture albeit of low resolution (mobile camera).
I asked chatGPT who makes the ECUs and got this:
so if anyone wants to spend the time to find out if aliexpress offers a ECU programing tool for Keihin ECUs - that could help.
additional questioning revealed that Hima and Scram 411 also use Keihin - but no model specifics where known.
so if anyone wants to spend the time to find out if aliexpress offers a ECU programing tool for Keihin ECUs - that could help.
I dont know but being critical of a company whilst trying to get information out of them is possibly a reason for being told to Fuck Off. Further descending into name calling isn't going to get anywhere.
Whilst the old Honda 'red box' enables some differences in tuning over the Powertronic , it is not a racing ecu, why would you think that? It's just an old Honda ECU from the noughties that happens to be a straight swap for the original ECU. Both it and the PT can be tuned within reason and have been with good success. When they did their assessment it was on the basis of my bike going on the dyno to further tweaks to the Red Box, they looked at the tuning software from your friend in Bangalore and that is where they could realise it's limitations, they advised if they cracked the original ecu, they would gain access to other parameters, but the cost to do that versus the finite improvements was not commercially viable in my opinion. Nothing critical, just facts, as opposed fiction.
I believe the BS 4 is an Keihin A370. Perhaps you should investigate bitbox, they likely have a reader/ programmer suitable for your needs, although who could use it and have unrestricted access to a dyno to perfect the rewrite would be your challenge.
Whilst the old Honda 'red box' enables some differences in tuning over the Powertronic , it is not a racing ecu, why would you think that? It's just an old Honda ECU from the noughties that happens to be a straight swap for the original ECU. Both it and the PT can be tuned within reason and have been with good success. When they did their assessment it was on the basis of my bike going on the dyno to further tweaks to the Red Box, they looked at the tuning software from your friend in Bangalore and that is where they could realise it's limitations, they advised if they cracked the original ecu, they would gain access to other parameters, but the cost to do that versus the finite improvements was not commercially viable in my opinion. Nothing critical, just facts, as opposed fiction.
I believe the BS 4 is an Keihin A370. Perhaps you should investigate bitbox, they likely have a reader/ programmer suitable for your needs, although who could use it and have unrestricted access to a dyno to perfect the rewrite would be your challenge.
I think that because I now that. The red box may have been initially made for Honda models but it was not the OEM ECU, it was meant for tuning outside of the OEM ECU which even Honda does not make public. You see that it does not use the close loop mode because each and every small increment of rpm was meant to be optimized on a dyno - which is normal in a racing environment but not in regular street use.
The PT never had the same level of influence the red box has on engine management - which is only natural being a piggy back.
and yes, these mumbai guys are idiots if they can't see that from one look at the software interface and still posing as "tuning experts" LOL.
In any case, that discussion is now closed here - there is a red box thread if you feel the need to indulge, we are getting off topic </moderator hat off>
Yes your right it has drifted off topic. Its really about assumptions that a 440 scram combined ECU and Throttle Body will actually be better than the prior 411 equivalent with a Fuel X pro + fitted.
I hope the 440 Scram ECU/TB will work and learn the parameters presented by bigger bores and cam configurations because then you gain the advantages of a Normal ECU that uses both open and closed Loop modes ( O2 sensoring for efficiency). I think what will be clear is the need to intercept and modifying the signal from the oxygen (O₂) sensor to the ECU, effectively adjusting the air-fuel ratio (AFR) to achieve a richer mixture under acceleration, otherwise it will be too lean for the bigger bores to operate effectively under hard acceleration. AKA the use of a fuel x pro + will be necessary.
I just have a nagging doubt, why would RE change from the current 411 ecu/TB combo when they could simply follow the same learning process the existing ECU apparently has, to go up to 440cc. Could already be at its limit? I sincerely hope not, I would be interested in being able to confidently switch to a BS6 for my next project bike, but you are going to need hard data to prove it works over a stock ECU with fuel x.
I also wonder if the cost of a new 440ECU/TB unit plus a fuel x pro + versus simply a Powertronic unit is actually cost effective for a BS6 Himalayan. Or would a PT also need the Fuel X as well?
I can see why you are searching for an alternative, but I wonder if you are just circling around the inevitable, that being cracking the existing ECU then re-flashing to whatever your big bore dyno parameters determine. Same principle for your 477 J engine, existing ECU works up to 410cc, but will just adding Fuel X compensate enough up to 477cc, could be a case for a similar remap of existing ECU as well I suppose although going from 350 to 477 may need other compensations . Of course finding somebody to do this for you, will probably be difficult.
As Alexander Pope wrote in his poem "An Essay on Criticism"...
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring."
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well I am mostly the field tester for ECU adaption and as mention earlier the use of the 440 ecu for a 477 is based on good experience with a 350 ecu working with 410 displacement. we do not hunt for the last km/h top speed - although its fun to do some running on a highway once in a while but it hardly is a scientific measurement. The fuelx pro or plus would help if the added displacement leads to lean run - although the test HUNTER 410 did not have it and ran fine.
There are limits and a 350 ecu will NOT manage a 500cc engine (I have tried that) - it will with a proper powertronic + map though.
now the 440 with 477 should NOT need a PT. Not even a Fuelx pro. while both may be added the PT in that configuration IMO its a waste of money. Better get the KENT cam which will also enrich the mix a bit and is overall quite torque-friendly.
There are limits and a 350 ecu will NOT manage a 500cc engine (I have tried that) - it will with a proper powertronic + map though.
now the 440 with 477 should NOT need a PT. Not even a Fuelx pro. while both may be added the PT in that configuration IMO its a waste of money. Better get the KENT cam which will also enrich the mix a bit and is overall quite torque-friendly.
